Rainer Werner Fassbinder was the central German movie director of the entire post-Hitler period. He was the best by way of productiveness (43 movies in just over a decade), vary and affect on his personal era—each in Germany and overseas. The “New German Cinema” revival of the ’70s is unthinkable with out him, and amongst his contemporaries, solely Werner Herzog (Fitzcarraldo, Aguirre) rivals him in world status. In movies like The Service provider of 4 Seasons, The Marriage of Maria Braun, Lili Marleen, and Lola—Fassbinder opened up a peculiar, teeming, madly fertile world: a world of bleak metropolis streets; garish interiors rotting with an over-sumptuous hothouse glamour; middle-class eccentricities and insanity; and an erotic, romantic frustration so intense that it appears to beat on the spectator in waves. There’s something nearly oppressive about his movies—they repel as they fascinate. Taken collectively they current a full and sometimes damning portrait of German society within the twentieth century—its social realities and, maybe extra vital, its cultural undertows, goals and nightmares.
After I spoke to Dieter Schidor—a deceptively boyish-appearing actor and ex-academic, who produced Fassbinder’s final movie (Querelle, taken from the Jean Genet novel) and directed The Wizard of Babylon (a documentary on the making of Querelle)—I anticipated an intimate glimpse of a pushed artist. I didn’t count on the image I bought: an appalling portrait of a person who was, in some ways, self-destructive, merciless and even monstrous—a person who tyrannized his pals and coworkers mercilessly; who drove a few of them (like actress Hanna Schygulla) actually into nervous breakdowns; who manipulated the system with consummate cynicism and crafty to finance his films; whose appetites for intercourse, medicine, emotional violence or depravity have been immense and uncontrollable; and whose private life was a pathetic, even sordid, shambles (each his long-term gay lovers dedicated suicide).
All through the interview, Schidor—a lucid, extraordinarily clever raconteur who clearly beloved Fassbinder—would sometimes pull again, protest that I used to be “making” him reveal a catalog of horrors; however seconds later, with little prodding, he would recount some new atrocity, pry open some new festering wound. It appears apparent that Fassbinder’s pals and associates could really feel nearly compelled to strip the veils from his monument. And so they maybe do that, not out of any sense of revenge or account-settling, however, in some bizarre approach, to convey this robust, risky, “monstrous”—however very human—determine again to life.
Schidor was open and sincere, eloquent past any interviewer’s goals and his remarks and tales communicate for themselves. They present Fassbinder, I feel, for what he most likely was: an ideal artist and a pitiable, amoral man. They present an individual who might be, generally nearly concurrently, violent and mild, revolutionary and bourgeois, passionate and calculating, vicious and humane, idealistic and corrupt; an artist who, maybe like Richard Wagner, bares the soul of his countrymen by reflecting in his artwork and his life all of the grossness and the sweetness, the idealism and the horror of Germany itself.
And in a peculiar approach, these generally surprising revelations could be, alongside together with his movie work (which, in Querelle, reached its apex), a real monument to Fassbinder—who, as Schidor makes clear, would have needed, even insisted on, that reality.
HIGH TIMES: How did you first meet Fassbinder?
DIETER SCHIDOR: I bought to know him in 1969: He had simply executed his first two movies: Katzelmacher and Love Is Colder than Dying. After which I acted in a few his movies—after which, in 1975, we had a struggle; for a few years we didn’t communicate to one another anymore—
HIGH TIMES: An inventive struggle?
SCHIDOR: No, it was a mix… It was a private struggle. We had executed a movie, Devil’s Brew, and I couldn’t come again for the second capturing. After which it occurred (via Querelle, truly) that we began speaking once more. In the middle of engaged on Querelle, we bought very shut.
HIGH TIMES: What was he like?
SCHIDOR: That could be a very, very troublesome query. I’ll try to inform it to you from my viewpoint. It’s a query that I get typically requested, and I attempt to be as concrete as potential—as a result of, for me, he’s an important individual that I’ve met in my life, and can meet. You most likely know that he might be very cynical, that he might be very depraved, and that he might be very unjust to individuals.
Every part he did, he did it in extra. He smoked in extra, he drank in extra; he took medicine in extra; he took sleeping drugs in extra; and he ate in extra.
To remain on the destructive aspect for a second, he… he destroyed individuals. He did that, he actually did. Not that he was responsible within the suicide of his one lover, and the hanging of one other, however he felt responsible, and it was actually one thing to do with him, you recognize; as a result of individuals modified once they have been round him, completely. They fell completely below his spell. I additionally fell below his spell. And also you let him do issues to you that you just wouldn’t let anyone else do. And folks would ask, “Why, why, do you permit him to try this?” And there was by no means a solution; individuals who weren’t very near him might by no means perceive that. He had, to start with, ladies that went into the road as prostitutes for him: actresses—
HIGH TIMES: To maintain the theater group going?
SCHIDOR: Yeah, to get cash, as a result of he appreciated to drink cognac and champagne. There’s a really well-known story— not a secret: He had a flat the place he lived with two of his actresses, and he despatched them out to fuck with pawnbrokers, with Turks and Greeks; and get twenty marks, thirty marks, for every fuck, after which convey it again to him.
And, on the identical time—and that is an important factor—to spend a night with him was extra fascinating than all of the humiliations you would get. There was a hypnotical energy that made him, for you, not solely into an establishment of creative high quality, but in addition— though he was completely amoral— there might be moments when he could be of such tenderness, and you’ll really feel he could be the one particular person in your life (extra even than your mom) that might perceive you, precisely, and you’ll belief him, utterly. However then it will occur that, two weeks later, he would completely use that, you recognize—
HIGH TIMES: What was this fascination based mostly on? The drive of his persona?
SCHIDOR: Uh-huh. This energy of his persona was there, earlier than he ever grew to become a director. He will need to have had this energy when he was fifteen years outdated—
HIGH TIMES: What in regards to the avant-garde theater troupe in Munich the place he began out?
SCHIDOR: You see, there was nothing occurring in Munich on the time, so the media caught up with them, and other people began writing about them. Fassbinder had his first half as an actor there, and he had discovered his traces, and he had forgotten them completely. So he was onstage, and he observed that he couldn’t say the traces, so he simply screamed; he modified all of it, and made this fifteen-minute speech, and simply saved screaming… He might react in a short time. And the media affect of the theater group—AntiTheater—bought him the cash for his first movie.
See, what occurred to him: when he’d executed his first movie, Love Is Colder than Dying, and that went to the Berlin Movie Competition, and it was smashed to items—the critics hated it; the individuals booed. Fassbinder wasn’t fascinated with that. He wasn’t within the booing, and he wasn’t fascinated with the one who got here up and mentioned he appreciated the movie. He knew he was doing the correct factor.
He had the flexibility to really feel that there was an empty area within the German tradition of that point, the place he might completely place his toes. And he bought cash from the subsidies; authorities cash, authorities grants. He was superb at utilizing the entire system to his finest benefit.
The trade was nonexistent; you possibly can say that. German cinema, till he got here, was actually nonexistent.
HIGH TIMES: Was his success the catalyst for different individuals, like Wenders and Herzog?
SCHIDOR: Mmmm-hmmm. Oh, yeah—they usually know that. He was the one who—all the time, as much as his loss of life—he was the one who simply pushed up his elbows, and went, like a bulldozer. He didn’t care; and he broke it open, additionally, for all of the others. For instance, when he did Third Era, he was a really distinguished, well-known movie director already— and, due to the subject material—terrorism—he didn’t get any cash, he was rejected by all the federal government grants… The actors have been already all in Berlin. He’d executed already two days of capturing; and he realized there was no cash in any respect. He referred to as the actors collectively and mentioned, “That’s the state of affairs. You possibly can go house, now. However, when you keep, you gained’t receives a commission.” After which some mentioned sure; some mentioned no—and he did the movie. He despatched individuals round to gather cash—fifty marks right here, 100 marks there—and he did the movie, the credit and completed it. He didn’t wait till he had the movie completely financed— he simply went forward.
HIGH TIMES: What have been his capturing schedules like?
SCHIDOR: Pietra Von Kant, 9 days. Hardly any of the sooner movies took greater than two or three weeks.
HIGH TIMES: How was he in a position to do that?
SCHIDOR: For a protracted time period he had the identical individuals. In order that was time-saving.
HIGH TIMES: When he began, was he working with crews that have been all tyros?
SCHIDOR: Yeah, they have been all beginning out. No person knew something. He was scared; he didn’t know something, both. And he mentioned he actually knew loads, lastly, after the capturing of Berlin Alexanderplatz. So, that was actually a part of the explanation why issues labored so quick.
HIGH TIMES: What have been the dynamics of his movie group? Was he capable of instill some kind of esprit de corps?
SCHIDOR: No. He was a tyrant. He was consistently enjoying with intrigues between the individuals. Thoughts video games—on a regular basis. If there could be relationships creating, he would destroy them; or he would begin new ones. You realize, there was a relentless power that was flowing. Individuals could be humiliated. He would decide on any individual—
HIGH TIMES: Had been a lot of them afraid of him?
SCHIDOR: Sure. Sure. And he would intrude completely with their personal lives.
There was a bunch of actors that have been very shut privately, additionally. His “inventory firm”: Hanna Schygulla or Günther Kaufmann, Kurt Raab, Harry Baer.
Hanna was presupposed to play “Lola.” She was at a celebration on the final day of capturing on Lili Marleen—she had began training the songs for Lola already. He advised her, “You’re not going to play ‘Lola’.” And he or she had a nervous breakdown … She actually broke up, you recognize.
HIGH TIMES: She was his largest star! Did he really feel she needed to be taken down a peg?
SCHIDOR: No. After having executed a movie like Lili Marleen, his fantasy for her was a bit exhausted. He wanted a break. That occurred after Effi Brest additionally. He despatched her away. He mentioned, “I can’t see your face anymore.” Then, after Effi Brest, the very first thing he did once more along with her was The Marriage of Maria Braun—which he actually did as a result of he had handled her so horribly within the meantime: didn’t reply cellphone calls, and by no means referred to as her again.
HIGH TIMES: You’re depicting a really merciless particular person. Why was he doing this? For the great of the challenge?
SCHIDOR: I don’t suppose there was any evaluation in what he was doing. He beloved enjoying these video games. And he beloved intrigues. And he was very infantile. And it was very merciless. However then, all these those that he was merciless to, and he was humiliating—they beloved him.
HIGH TIMES: He pulled them up?
SCHIDOR: He pulled them up, yeah. He actually pulled them up. And… I might greater than say we have been pals; I might say that I—I beloved him; which largely I observed after he was lifeless, as a result of… Now there’s something lacking which… I do know I’ll by no means meet any individual like that once more who will open up issues in my head, that no one else has executed earlier than.
I notice I’m not being very exact. You see, it’s very, very troublesome. Don’t decide on the… After I say all these destructive issues, you possibly can create a personality, and you’ll say, “Oh, he was horrible.” There was a variety of cynicism and harmful game-playing. It’s all true, you recognize, and that was all there. And I’ve seen him do issues that have been actually unbelievable—like hitting individuals; or, the cutter of Querelle—he got here into the reducing room as soon as, as a result of she had made a comment; and he hit her together with his leather-based jacket, and she or he had an enormous wound over her face. After which he didn’t communicate to her for 4 weeks. After which he would come and produce her massive presents, you recognize. Or, we’d have a struggle, after which he would instantly name up in the midst of the evening and say, “Can we go for a stroll?” Very candy and tender, and you’ll forgive the whole lot.
HIGH TIMES: He feels like an individual who lets the whole lot out.
SCHIDOR: Every part. Then, he was utterly free.
HIGH TIMES: Isn’t that uncommon for German society?
SCHIDOR: No, it’s very uncommon. He was hated by many, many individuals—particularly in Germany… Within the media, he was all the time beloved. He established his place very quick. However with the general public— together with his TV issues, he irritated individuals loads. Then there was his look: his leather-based jacket, and torn denims, and unshaven—that was uncommon. Or that he would sit in press conferences, and never be well mannered. He was by no means well mannered. And, on the identical time—it’s very complicated—together with his scruffy costume; it was a false entrance. He knew that it was efficient.
HIGH TIMES: One other attention-grabbing factor about his movies is their immense catholicity of tastes and pursuits.
SCHIDOR: He might soak a variety of issues up with out being completely concerned. It’s not that he knew loads in regards to the Third Reich, for instance, but when there have been sure points that him, then he would, very quick, study what he needed to know. It was not that he learn loads, you recognize—he learn the books that he needed to learn. Alfred Döblin, a German thinker—he’s one in every of our classics. And Querelle was one in every of his favourite books. And Schopenhauer…
So, in his bed room, you’ll discover—with the porno magazines—you’ll discover all of Schopenhauer.
HIGH TIMES: He additionally had an actual aptitude for cinematic mimicry—
SCHIDOR: He had a few administrators that he knew each movie—and one was Douglas Sirk. You possibly can see his affect, particularly in Lola and Concern Eats the Soul. Then there have been the Michael Curtiz films—Fassbinder was going to do a e book on Curtiz.
HIGH TIMES: How did he work with actors?
SCHIDOR: He would by no means say, “You have been good.” Provided that one thing was unhealthy; he would say, “Okay, you need to try this once more.” His presence was such that, he made the actor really feel—He was very tender; don’t overlook that. Throughout capturing, he created an environment of unimaginable tenderness. Or; if he thought it was wanted, he might create an environment of complete horror—of actually beating, with phrases and cynicism, the shit out of an actor, to get the efficiency he needed.
HIGH TIMES: Fassbinder appeared to have discovered his monetary contact within the final 4 years.
SCHIDOR: However, see, what he did, when you look again, the primary movies that he’d executed—together with The Service provider of 4 Seasons—have been movies actually treating issues of lower-working-class individuals, movies that the common cinema viewers weren’t fascinated with. He modified… He modified, and bought his viewers’s consideration—wider public consideration—when he introduced in regular middle-class bourgeois topics.
HIGH TIMES: Why was he working with working-class topics to start with, if that wasn’t truly his background?
SCHIDOR: It was not his background, however… When he was dwelling in Cologne, when he was sixteen, seventeen, and he might do what he needed, he was operating round areas the place employees have been: you recognize, homosexual bars. So he was all the time with that kind of individuals loads—he appreciated them. Additionally, in the course of the capturing of a movie, he wouldn’t sit with the employees; he would sit with the lighting individuals, the electricians. He felt extra comfy there. In order that was a part of his personal persona: he felt very near them.
HIGH TIMES: Might you speak in regards to the circumstances surrounding the suicide of his lover and his personal drug overdose and loss of life? Except it’s too personal—
SCHIDOR: No, no. There’s no motive to not do it, as a result of one factor that Fassbinder was all the time very, very robust about—he all the time felt that the whole lot personal will be made public. There’s no motive to not make something public.
His lover [Armin Maier] was one in every of these boys that have been created within the final 12 months, 1945, within the Motion Lebensborn—you recognize, the place the Nazi occasion put blond males and blond German girls collectively into locations—
HIGH TIMES: Breeding grounds?
SCHIDOR: Yeah, breeding grounds… They have been dwelling collectively, I feel, for 5 years. He grew up an orphan, and he was adopted by a butcher, in north Bavaria; then got here to Munich, and he served as a waiter in a restaurant the place all of us used to go. And so they grew to become lovers, they usually moved into one condominium. After which … Fassbinder had written him a letter—(it didn’t work out anymore. He advised me that. He mentioned, “The one time after we can perceive one another is after we take LSD. That’s the one second after we can talk”). It was getting worse and worse between them. Fassbinder had written him a letter that it was all completed.
Then, it’s essential to know that the lover has acted in a few his movies— Germany in Autumn and Mom Küsters Goes to Heaven. He launched him like James Dean in that movie: “For the primary time on the display—Armin Maier.” Armin was operating round with that letter (Rainer was in Cannes on the time) and displaying it to individuals—as a result of he didn’t perceive. It was a really mental letter—after which Armin took an overdose of sleeping drugs and was discovered a few days later by Fassbinder’s mom, of their flat. Fassbinder bought an actual shock out of it; he felt very responsible. And many individuals blamed him for that—which I consider is improper. What had occurred, in fact, the lover had modified loads. You realize, when you stay with a really robust persona—he had began copying Fassbinder’s gestures, Fassbinder’s approach of speech. And he had misplaced, kind of, his personal id…
And the opposite lover… You realize Ali: Concern Eats the Soul? Bear in mind the Arab man in it? [El Hedi Ben Salem] He hanged himself in a jail in Marseilles. It was after Concern Eats the Soul, which Fassbinder gave to him as a kind of “goodbye” current. That they had been dwelling collectively a few years, additionally. They even introduced up a son from Morocco, the son of Salem, as a result of Fassbinder thought he needed to begin a household—
HIGH TIMES: Was Salem an actor to start with?
SCHIDOR: No, he was any individual who was working in Paris, hustling in Paris, doing all kinds of issues. He had a household with six youngsters in Morocco; after which he met Fassbinder they usually lived collectively in Munich. After which they went right down to Morocco and located the household, and took one eight-year-old son as much as Germany. And that grew to become not possible, you recognize—as a result of Fassbinder didn’t care for the son. The daddy beat the shit out of the son at any time when he bought it from Fassbinder. After which the son was given to the women, you recognize, to care for him, and ship him to high school. And generally he was forgotten; forgotten in a flat, and couldn’t get out for 3 days.
Then, after Concern Eats the Soul, they have been in Berlin, they usually had a struggle once more, and Salem went out, and he was drunk—he drank loads—and he stabbed any individual—
HIGH TIMES: And killed them?
SCHIDOR: No, he didn’t kill them—however he stabbed any individual in a bar. Individuals bought cash collectively, they usually despatched him off to Paris. And that was the top, you recognize. He was operating round in Paris and saying, “I’m the one. Me, fucking with Fassbinder. Me, star from Concern Eats the Soul.” In Paris he was invited to a few events, after which, some months later, he was caught… I don’t know what he had executed—stolen one thing. And he hanged himself in jail.
HIGH TIMES: Did Fassbinder specific any interior torment over all of this?
SCHIDOR: Yeah, positive. He didn’t specific it outwardly… There was one state of affairs—it was after Querelle, I feel —and he had these great dinner events, Fassbinder. He had this flat in Munich, and he completely adored caviar—he would spend hundreds of marks on caviar each month; and invite individuals, and all people would get an enormous piece of caviar. He would spend cash like mad, shopping for presents. After which Kurt Raab (who performed the lead in The Stationmaster’s Spouse and Devil’s Brew, and was the artwork director on most of the movies) lastly took care of this son that Fassbinder and the Arab man had introduced over from Algeria—and the son’s in jail now, additionally, as a result of he bought into medicine and drug-dealing. Fassbinder made a comment at that dinner: “Oh, Kurt, once you need to see your pals, you need to go to them in jail.” After which Kurt, who was already a little bit bit drunk, mentioned: “Oh, Rainer, once you need to go to your pals, you need to go to the cemetery.” And Fassbinder regarded—and it actually goes like a knife into him. He actually… He actually suffered from that. He would by no means talk about it.
To return again to your first query: round that point of Armin’s loss of life, he was actually depressed, all the time. However, and I’m damned fairly positive about it, it has nothing to do with Fassbinder dying.
HIGH TIMES: The suggestion wasn’t suicide, however that his recurring depressions would drive him to excesses—
SCHIDOR: Yeah. Don’t overlook: when you say that it was an overdose—actually, medically, at that second when he died, it was an overdose—however he didn’t die accidentally, via an overdose. He was bodily, completely—run down.
It was a horrible factor for the insurance coverage firms to get him to a health care provider. He had the concept that he could be stronger than nature. He would sit there together with his fats abdomen, consuming, consuming; smoking dope the entire time; taking actually massive quantities of cocaine; after which say, “I’m going to show it. The power I’ve is so robust, I can’t die. What would occur to the power I’ve?” He mentioned that to me at Cannes… You realize, all of us knew it. We knew it was not potential, what he was doing. It’s actually not possible—and he has to die. Everyone knew that, for a few years. The excesses have been so robust. After which, at one level, you simply mentioned, “Effectively, possibly he’s proper, possibly it is a miracle. Possibly he’s so robust that he will get away with it… “
HIGH TIMES: If he’d lived via it, do you suppose he would have modified? Or would he simply have gone on to the top?
SCHIDOR: In all probability. He began his self-destruction many, a few years in the past.
HIGH TIMES: Why?
SCHIDOR: One factor was… When he didn’t movie, he didn’t know what to do with himself. He went on these erratic journeys for 3 days to the Dominican Republic, or two days to New York—you recognize, spending enormous quantities of cash on first-class air tickets; taking any individual alongside; hating it after three days.
The final time I used to be in New York with him, and we have been actually alone the entire time, he didn’t… He went to the sauna one time, however the intercourse was nothing very optimistic. That was his final 12 months, you recognize, the 12 months of Querelle.
HIGH TIMES: In order that’s why he saved up this livid exercise?
SCHIDOR: Yeah, that’s why. I actually was so shocked… I didn’t consider—I knew he was actually run down, already, in New York; after which we went to Cannes for the movie competition. And he wouldn’t go to mattress earlier than six o’clock. All of the preparations for the cocaine: there was all kinds of individuals spending enormous quantities of cash. After which he would rise up at possibly 9 or ten. And one evening he stayed at my resort at Cannes as a result of the following morning, at 9 o’clock, there was a reception of the German Export Union.
So, it was six o’clock within the morning, and he despatched his assistant as much as the pension to get his white go well with to have the ability to go there; and he slept in my room. And we have been studying to one another. And he was taking this very robust sleeping capsule referred to as Mandrax, which is sort of a Quaalude. So he was taking three Quaaludes, three Valium 10, and he was having all these very robust Bloody Marys that he ordered by room service on the identical time. Then he mentioned to me: ”See, if that doesn’t work in about fifteen minutes, I’m going to take the identical quantity once more.”… So, fifteen minutes later, he took three once more, and three Valium 10 once more. And in between, don’t overlook, he all the time had traces of cocaine. So then he mentioned—very proud, like a little bit youngster, very proud: “When you would take that, you’ll be lifeless already.” However proud, you recognize—
HIGH TIMES: Did he bask in the rest?
SCHIDOR: LSD, however not a lot. Now and again—twice a month, thrice a month.
HIGH TIMES: Would he use these on the set?
SCHIDOR: LSD, no. Cocaine… Fassbinder wouldn’t do hallucinogenic medicine on the set, however he would do a number of alcohol—Jim Beam all the time—full glasses, beer glasses filled with Jim Beam. He would end two bottles of Jim Beam a day, throughout capturing. He would by no means be drunk; I’ve by no means seen him drunk… And there would all the time be marijuana or hash that he would smoke on the set.
HIGH TIMES: Did anybody ever go to him and say, “Look, you’re killing your self”?
SCHIDOR: Yeah, however then you need to know, to try to speak to him and say, “Hear, Rainer, you recognize what you’re doing to your physique is… Come on, now; you might have time now, 4 weeks—go to the Swiss clinic. It’s great; we’ll include you…” All this we talked about consistently, that we now have to try this—And after his loss of life, in fact, there got here this guilt factor. Ingrid Caven, who was his spouse, was an excellent good friend of mine, advised me that… Don’t overlook, he was an actual little bourgeois, additionally. Once they have been dwelling on this home, and Ingrid Caven got here in and he appreciated her, he requested her to sleep with him. And he or she mentioned, “I like this man. I didn’t discover him particularly engaging— he’s fats, and he has a number of pimples… However I went as much as his flat. The weirdest factor was once I got here down for breakfast … He had simply moved in there, and there have been about eight individuals sitting on the breakfast desk within the kitchen; and Fassbinder had placed on a go well with, and he was sitting on the prime of the desk—they usually have been all ready for me to return down. After I got here down he allowed them to begin breakfast; now, I used to be his property.”
Then they bought married and he didn’t need her to work anymore. He mentioned, “My spouse doesn’t should work.” And he or she mentioned, “I used to be going loopy. What is that this? What have I bought myself into?” He was like an actual—like a husband.
HIGH TIMES: It appears he’s bought this robust bourgeois character matrix; after which, when he doesn’t maintain on to that, he simply spins uncontrolled.
SCHIDOR: Completely. So he punished her for it… She needed a divorce.
HIGH TIMES: It’s nearly as if he’s punishing himself for being a foul boy—
SCHIDOR: On a regular basis, on a regular basis.
HIGH TIMES: What was his household life like?
SCHIDOR: His father was a health care provider, and he constructed condominium homes which he rented to international employees from Greece and Turkey, the place he put eight individuals in a single room, and bought a number of them—actually exploited them. And Fassbinder, as a boy, was despatched round to the flats to gather the cash. And his mom was all the time sick, and she or he was translating; and he was given cash to go to the cinema. He noticed… Since he was six (he didn’t go to high school a lot), he noticed 5 movies a day for years. Then he left house—he didn’t do his high-school commencement—and he utilized to go to the Berlin Movie Institute. He made his software, he made his check—and he failed it. They didn’t settle for him.
HIGH TIMES: How outdated was he?
SCHIDOR: Eighteen. Then he began appearing lessons, when he was very younger. He by no means heard something from his mother and father, and solely after his title was within the papers, instantly his mom referred to as him. And since then, he casts his mom additionally—his mom is in his movies. It remained a really robust relationship… She was in Lili Marleen (as Mel Ferrer’s spouse).
That’s the kind of household he got here from. He all the time accused her of attempting to kill him. That was his pleasure—he would accuse her of giving him bitter apples when he was a baby, so he would eat the bitter apples and die. And he or she would begin crying and say, “Possibly I gave you as soon as a bitter apple, however I didn’t need to—” “Sure! You needed to kill me!”
You realize, I’m telling you… You make me inform you all this stuff…
HIGH TIMES: Hear, I like Fassbinder’s movies a lot that it doesn’t—
SCHIDOR: That’s what I hope! I hope you get that straight, you recognize—
HIGH TIMES: It’s additionally kind of a corrective, you recognize, as a result of I used to be so shocked at his loss of life. It appeared such an immense loss…
SCHIDOR: It’s! It’s!
HIGH TIMES: … to have this torrent of creativity minimize off when he was at his biggest…
SCHIDOR: Sure. You will note it in Querelle! He was at his biggest…
HIGH TIMES: … So, you’re not blackening his title—
SCHIDOR: No. That it’s the final thing I might need, as a result of I feel he’s the best—not solely movie—I feel he’s one of many biggest artists that Germany has had after the conflict. And for me, personally, he was probably the most lovable and thrilling and haunting and despicable and great particular person I’ve ever identified in my life.
HIGH TIMES: In case you have somebody who doesn’t repress something, who lets the whole lot out, you get the unhealthy in addition to the great. Nobody has a pure soul…
SCHIDOR: Mmm-hmmm. I feel you’re feeling that—you see that in The Wizard. You see either side in The Wizard. You see this unimaginable tenderness, and the good artist. And also you see additionally the cynicism. And in Querelle, it’s a big-budget film—and, on the identical time, it’s like… this very personal movie… He didn’t movie the novel; he made his personal subjective meditation on Genet’s novel. Once you see Querelle, you see that there’s actually any individual who—after the ”lady” movies—began one thing completely new—
HIGH TIMES: So that you suppose he was going via an ideal new interval?
SCHIDOR: Sure.
HIGH TIMES: What, for you, have been the excessive factors of his profession?
SCHIDOR: My favourite movies are The Service provider of 4 Seasons, In a 12 months of 13 Moons. I do like Devil’s Brew loads. And Querelle. These 4.
HIGH TIMES: Might you discuss Querelle?
SCHIDOR: Effectively, I inform you one factor which I feel is unimaginable in regards to the movie which has provoked a variety of scandal and irritation and aggressiveness—in Italy it’s nonetheless forbidden—They needed to have twenty-five minutes minimize out of the movie. There are three particular scenes they need to minimize out. There are two intercourse scenes, the place you don’t see something, actually. The provocation, the pornography, occurs within the thoughts of the viewer (in order for you it, it’s there). However Fassbinder did one thing… He did two very, very erotic scenes in Querelle, though you don’t see a cock or an ass, however the whole lot is there. And people scenes they needed to chop out—
HIGH TIMES: It could appear that the censors are distressed extra on the combination of sexuality and politics than specific intercourse—
SCHIDOR: Sure, Querelle is a really political movie. With out being something brazenly political; nevertheless it’s political within the sense that… What Fassbinder needed was actually not a movie about homosexuality. After Fox and His Buddies he wasn’t actually that fascinated with homosexuality.
HIGH TIMES: Effectively, Fox and His Buddies isn’t actually about homosexuality—
SCHIDOR: No, it’s about exploitation and energy relationships amongst males. Okay—and in Querelle there’s a robust gay side within the movie that didn’t curiosity him within the least. What him within the movie was—and he says that within the interview, very clearly—what he needed to point out is that if you wish to be free and be blissful, you need to discover your individual id. So, to seek out your individual id, he believed, with Genet, this reality: that you need to invent your self as soon as extra. And the way higher are you able to invent your self as soon as greater than in a brother or in any individual that you just love? In Querelle, the brother and the person who Querelle thinks he loves (after which, when he realizes that, he murders) are performed by the identical actor (Hanno Pöschl).
HIGH TIMES: It’s probably that Querelle will ultimately develop into a cult movie within the States—the truth is, you may even pray for just a few violent denunciations—
SCHIDOR: Yeah, yeah! At first I used to be actually disturbed; now I prefer it when individuals get actually: “Aaagh! That is horrible!” And you recognize what? Many gays hate the movie.
HIGH TIMES: What was your relationship with him like in the course of the capturing?
SCHIDOR: I’ll inform you an instance and you’ll see. He had insisted that he receives a commission every single day in money. He beloved money; he hated checks. He bought paid in money each morning earlier than capturing. He began capturing the movie at eight—
HIGH TIMES: Did he all the time do that?
SCHIDOR: No, not on his personal movies that he produced. (And he had a number of cash bother.) So I needed to give him, each morning, between six and 7 thousand {dollars} in money. After which there was a morning once I didn’t have the cash. (We had cash issues as a result of the financing, after we began, was not completely set; I had solely a part of the cash, however we needed to begin.) Then he mentioned, “You realize, I can lend you the cash. I may give you thirty or forty thousand marks.”
HIGH TIMES: He needed the ritual?
SCHIDOR: He needed the ritual, yeah. And I need to say, with out him, the movie would have been not possible. The monetary issues have been actually so horrible.
HIGH TIMES: Is that usually an issue with German movies?
SCHIDOR: No, with this movie it was particularly powerful. We had an oral promise from the Berlin authorities that they’d give a grant of 5 hundred thousand {dollars}. After which the Christian Democratic Authorities—they thought they may make a profile in entrance of their Conservative-party base and say, “We aren’t going to assist this soiled film, though it’s Fassbinder.” He had simply gotten the Golden Bear in Berlin for Veronika Voss. After which it grew to become a complete political state of affairs: the Liberal occasion then fought in opposition to the Christian Democrats. They have been a coalition, they usually threatened to interrupt up the federal government.
HIGH TIMES: Over Querelle?
SCHIDOR: Over Querelle. It was a query that was raised within the Berlin senate. Fassbinder needed to signal issues that he would make the movie so eighteen and sixteen-year-olds might go to see it—that he wouldn’t do any specific intercourse. He signed the whole lot, he didn’t give a shit. After which as soon as they referred to as him up and mentioned, “We don’t consider that that is his signature.” And I used to be sitting in his room. I mentioned, “Rainer, they don’t consider that you just signed this factor: that you just have been going to do the movie for sixteen-year-olds.” He took the receiver and he screamed on the director for Financial Relations on the senate: “I’m coming over there with my passport to show to you that it’s my signature!”
You realize, he did all this stuff to make the film potential. We bought rejected from most of presidency grants. It was privately financed and it had price over two and a half million {dollars}—which, for a German movie, is some huge cash… No person will get regular salaries: neither Brad Davis nor Jeanne Moureau nor Franco Nero… And in addition, for The Wizard, he helped me.
HIGH TIMES: Do you suppose there’s any probability that the identical type of unlucky factor will occur that occurred to Fitzcarraldo and Burden of Desires: that critics will say the documentary is superior to its topic?
SCHIDOR: That occurred with The Wizard additionally. Individuals have referred to as me and mentioned, “I just like the movie significantly better than Querelle“—which is a silly factor to say. These are individuals that may’t do something with Querelle… You possibly can’t evaluate the 2 issues. What is sweet about The Wizard is the Fassbinder interview; however I had a variety of issues together with his mom. She needed me to chop it.
HIGH TIMES: Why?
SCHIDOR: I don’t know, it was a mixture of causes. To begin with, he had simply died. He appears to be like… Within the final months of his life, he was not very engaging within the regular sense. I by no means thought Fassbinder was ugly, as a result of he had these great eyes, you recognize—these eyes that made up for the whole lot. It was by no means… “ugliness” is the improper phrase to explain it. However he was not engaging within the regular sense like a mom wish to see her son. Then the mom has had this horror, and she or he has determined that, now, after the loss of life, “My son was by no means a gay.”
HIGH TIMES: She’s determined that it’s some enormous lie?
SCHIDOR: Yeah—It’s a typical “mom” factor to attempt to put her son—to “rebourgeois” him. And I attempt to clarify to her—I mentioned, “You’re doing the improper factor. You are attempting to place Rainer on a pure pedestal. He doesn’t belong there. You make him smaller in doing that. Don’t you perceive that when you don’t go away this massive mountain that he was, you recognize—this massive, highly effective mountain—all of the aspects a persona can have… That’s a part of the greatness of him. And when you attempt to clean him out right into a bourgeois particular person that really needed nothing greater than having a cheerful life with youngsters, you then’re destroying your individual son.”
HIGH TIMES: How did the remainder of his “firm” react to his loss of life?
SCHIDOR: Whole shock. Shock and… a mix of shock and reduction. Which could appear unusual to you. After I say “reduction,” I don’t imply they weren’t unhappy, however a burden was taken off their backs on the identical time that there was a really, very massive loss…
HIGH TIMES: What did he consider his German contemporaries?
SCHIDOR: Fassbinder? He didn’t have any contact with anybody. I requested him that within the interview, and he had an excellent reply. He appears to be like. And he smiles: “We’re all good pals. All pals.”
HIGH TIMES: It’s attention-grabbing—Herzog and Fassbinder are kind of the antithesis of one another.
SCHIDOR: Yeah, Fitzcarraldo and Querelle, each movies about ships. You realize, there’s a humorous scene, when Fassbinder and I have been at Cannes, and Fitzcarraldo was in official competitors. And on the evening of the movie we have been simply strolling on the road by the seashore close to the Resort Carlton. We have been going throughout by the resort and we see possibly thirty, forty photographers strolling backwards; after which Werner Herzog in a black go well with, and Claudia Cardinale coming over to the screening. And Fassbinder and I have been standing within the center, by some palm bushes… They have been passing us, and he was out of his thoughts. He saved… The very first thing he’d inform me, “It’s best to have seen them in Venice! There have been at the least thrice as many photographers! What a ridiculous factor, to go to a movie a few ship. It’s sufficient to make you sick…” And actually occurring and on, actually livid that Herzog bought all this consideration.
They hardly mentioned “Howdy” to one another, you recognize. Herzog would come—we have been sitting in a bar—and Herzog would are available in. They might kind of look, and look away: Herzog and Fassbinder. There was no relationship in any respect.
HIGH TIMES: It’s too unhealthy—they’re each nice administrators.
SCHIDOR: Sure… Fassbinder thought so, too.
HIGH TIMES: I perceive you recognize Leni Riefenstahl. What’s she like?
SCHIDOR: For a 12 months we now have been involved—via Querelle, by the best way. Fassbinder and I needed her to do the nonetheless pictures on Querelle, and she or he needed to do it, additionally. After which she couldn’t, as a result of she had a contract to movie sharks underwater. After which Fassbinder died; and she or he wrote a beautiful letter. She admired him loads; she beloved his movies. After which about three weeks in the past I went to see her for the primary time. I got here to the home on the south of Munich. I anticipated an outdated lady—she’s eighty. And there was this creature operating down the steps like a teenaged lady. After all, she had the outdated face, however there was a vitality.
That Sunday afternoon that I used to be there… She’s very outdated; you recognize, outdated individuals—they lose boundaries. One thing occurs, I feel it’s a chemical response. They develop into… They speak freely about intercourse, they usually speak freely about issues they wouldn’t usually point out. And he or she mentioned, “You realize, what Susan Sontag writes about me—that I all the time painting the athletes as gods as a result of I hold capturing from low angles? You realize what the explanation was? Within the Olympic stadium, in 1936, the partitions have been lined with German cognac ads; and I didn’t need that on the image—so I needed to put the cameras into the bottom and shoot up. That was the one strategy to keep away from them!”
HIGH TIMES: How does Riefenstahl look on the Nazi interval?
SCHIDOR: Effectively, I inform you one factor. She mentioned, “Schidor, I inform you—I mentioned this to Albert Speer after his e book got here out. You realize, I like Albert, and I mentioned, ‘How might you write these silly issues? How might you painting it so destructive?’ … As for me, I used to be below his spell. In March 1945, I might have had my fingers minimize off to get a smile from Hitler.” And he or she says that out, completely brazenly—
HIGH TIMES: How does she really feel about Hitler now?
SCHIDOR: Oh, I feel she’s modified. Don’t overlook that that was the best time in her life. And he was probably the most fascinating particular person to her.
The older I get and the extra I learn about it, the extra I hold asking my kinfolk and my mother and father and all people I can get ahold of—the much less explicable it turns into to me: this entire period of these twelve years. The factor that basically troubles me—additionally once I communicate to my mother and father, who come from a little bit village in Japanese Prussia—once I say, “Effectively, what did you suppose when Herr and Frau Lubenstein weren’t there anymore?” They are saying, “We don’t know…” And I say, “Effectively, didn’t you suppose it was unusual that Jews weren’t allowed to take a seat on benches anymore?” The identical with Leni Riefenstahl, when she goes on about, “I didn’t know something about focus camps…” Bullshit! That’s not the purpose: What was occurring was occurring since 1933. If there’s an indication that JEWS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER THIS BUS and Jews go and go and go and don’t come again, you don’t should learn about focus camps.
HIGH TIMES: What’s inexplicable is that the entire humanistic German custom of artwork and philosophy and music appears to have someway evaporated throughout this era. The place did it go? What occurred?
SCHIDOR: The place did it go? Proper. Good query.
Learn the complete challenge right here.